Dive into the intriguing and thought-provoking Buddhist philosophy of hungry ghosts with Eddie Reece and Bill Courtright. Together, they discuss how we become these so-called ghosts when we hold on to our unfulfilled desires, aimlessly pursue impossible satisfactions, and let rage dictate our actions. Discover how unmet needs can manifest in various aspects of life, from personal relationships to societal conflicts. They also present practical tips on overcoming your hungry ghosts by focusing on what you already and actually have instead of what you do not or could never have.
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Beyond Hungry Ghosts: Letting Go Of Unmet Expectations
The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to this week’s episode of The Couch Trip with Eddie Reece and Bill Courtright, Therapy for Everyday Life. We have an outstanding conversation for you to witness. We’re going to be talking about the Buddhist concept of the realm of the hungry ghosts. Don’t let that title scare you. I promise you, not only will you be better informed, enlightened, and entertained at times, but you will leave this episode feeling better and more certain about how to deal with the things that might be scary in your life. They won’t be after you practice what Eddie has in store. Stay tuned.
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Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. It’s Billy and Eddie, and we’re bringing you another episode of The Couch Trip, Therapy for Everyday Life with your host, Bill Courtright, and the fairly infamous Eddie Reece, psychotherapist extraordinaire. Shortly after our last episode, Eddie and I had a conversation. He actually called me right after the episode and started talking about future topics. He had asked, he said, “Billy, did we ever talk about the realm of the hungry ghosts?” I said, “I think I would remember that if we did.”
Interesting side note, if you choose to put that in a Google search bar, or bring it up over a cup of coffee with Eddie, I promise you the search results, as well as the conversation, will be extremely captivating. It is a very interesting concept. I’ve been looking forward to the recording of this episode since that conversation a few weeks back. Eddie, as a way to introduce our viewers and listeners to this concept, how in the world do you describe the realm of the hungry ghosts?
It’s easier to read you about it to get us going. This is from a book, Thoughts Without A Thinker: Psychotherapy from a Buddhist Perspective. I may do my best. Mark is a Buddhist psychiatrist. I discovered this a really long time ago. It was one of those moments of clarity where it was like all the puzzle pieces just went into place because this concept relates to so much of what folks struggle with in their lives and certainly what people come and sit in my office about. It comes from a Buddhist idea they call the wheel of life. That wheel looks like a pie chart, and in each slice of the pie is a realm. From what I understand of Buddhism, the belief is you just go around and around in that wheel of life forever and ever and ever.
There’s no endpoint, which I really like because it’s part of my philosophy that you’re not ever going to get a certificate. I tell my clients, “How long would it be a therapy book? You’re never going to get a certificate.” You go into the realm, and then you have to work your way out of it. When you do, you go into another one. You just go around and around. This is the realm of the hungry ghosts. The hungry ghosts are probably the most vividly drawn metaphors in the wheel of life, phantom-like creatures with withered limbs, grossly bloated bellies, and long, thin necks. The hungry ghosts, in many ways, represent a fusion of rage and desire. That is a really important element here, a fusion of rage and desire.
We haven’t done a podcast yet. This might be the next one we do, what rage is and the difference between rage and anger. It’s one of the more important concepts I’ve come across. I use it all the time. Very quickly, rage is a reaction to feeling hopeless, helpless, and powerless. It’s an attempt to overpower. I feel hopeless, helpless, powerless, therefore, I have to overpower, and that happens when you feel threatened. That goes back to one of our podcast episodes about anxiety, you feel threatened and fight. I’m going to overpower. I want to do that with rage. Rage can be as big as flying an airplane into a building, or it could be as small as rolling your eyes.
Rage is a reaction to feeling hopeless, helpless, and powerless. It is an attempt to overpower.
It’s very different from anger because anger is a helpful, hopeful emotion. “I don’t like this. I want it to be different. I think it can.” Rage is hopeless, helpless, powerless. “I don’t like this. I don’t think it’s ever going to change. I’m going to destroy it.” If you’re filled with a desire, “I want this,” in the context of our conversation about fantasy, I have a desire for something, and it’s that fantasy. It’s never going to come true. It’s impossible. I’m going to rage and just destroy. That’s the song, Hey Joe, “I shot my old lady down, you know, caught her messing with another man.” If I can’t change this, I’ll destroy it. The ghosts represent a fusion of rage and desire.
Exploring The Concept Of Mommy And Daddy Love
They are tormented by unfulfilled cravings and insatiably demanding of impossible satisfactions. “I want the fantasy to come true. I want the world to behave the way I demand it behave.” The hungry ghosts are searching for gratification for old, unfulfilled needs whose time has passed. “My fantasy is that I will get everything I should have got by now.” I generally, with my clients, take it back and shortcut this by calling it what you’re after, mommy and daddy love. Your version of that, which, when you boil it down, I think, is this belief that mommy and daddy will be entirely devoted to me and only me, which shows up in a romantic fantasy.
I’m the only one. Mommy and daddy will just be with me 24/7, and they will meet all of my needs wherever I want, and really not meet my needs, but meet my needs, my desires, and my demands without question. That’s a hungry ghost. That’s what a hungry ghost is after. They are beings who have uncovered a terrible emptiness in themselves, who cannot see the impossibility of correcting something that has already happened. I’m not going to be that child again and have mommy and daddy entirely devoted to me. I’m not going to have them. Their ghost-like state represents an attachment to the past, and in Buddhism, attachment causes suffering.
In addition, these beings, while impossibly hungry and thirsty, cannot drink or eat without causing themselves terrible pain and indigestion. Their very attempts to satisfy themselves cause more pain. Their long, thin throats are so narrow and raw that swallowing produces unbearable burning and irritation. Their bloated bellies are, in turn, unable to digest nourishment. A client comes in, and they say, “I’ve done everything right, and I’m miserable.” What they’re really saying in this context is, “I have shoved everything down my throat that I knew would satisfy me, and it didn’t.” That one sentence they tell me describes, I’m a hungry ghost.
The Trap Of When-Then Thinking
The very attempts at gratification only yield a more intense hunger and craving. “I’m going to go buy me something new, and I’ll feel better.” And they do, for a while. Then they don’t even use it. I remember a comedian saying, “My wife said, ‘Let’s go. I want to go shopping for clothes. I want you to go with me.’ He says, ‘If you want to try on clothes, you know, go in your closet.'” We’re always going into what I call when-then thinking, when I get this, when I grow up, then I can do what I want to do. When I am successful, when I’m happy, when I get everything I want, when I get married, when I have kids, when I have the right job, the right amount of money, drive the right car, use the right toothpaste, drink the right beer, everything will work out.
I.e., I will then have mommy-daddy love, complete devotion. All my demands will be met. I will live happily ever after. They are beings who cannot take in a present-day, albeit transitory, satisfaction. This demand, which is a tantrum, causes us to not be able to take in the caring, kindness, and love that actually comes to us. “You did a great job.” “It was all right. There were some problems with it.” “You look really good today.” “I don’t know. I got this thing a month ago for it from the dermatologist appointment. Make sure you wear your zinc oxide.” We can’t even take in kindness, love, or caring, somebody being nice. The reason we can’t is because, “I don’t want that. I want this.”
How Attachment Causes Suffering
A child loses their favorite toy and throws a tantrum, and mom or dad says, “Here, you can play with this.” That’s what we’re doing as grown-ups and being hungry ghosts. They remain obsessed with the fantasy of achieving complete release from the pain of their past and are stubbornly unaware that their desire is fantasy. “When-then, it will all go away. I’ll live happily ever after. I won’t have any problems.” Being a fairly old person, it’s like, where’s this golden years thing? When’s that going to happen? Again, I think we might have mentioned this, that our entire culture is built on the fact that we’re all hungry ghosts. Capitalism just feeds on hungry ghosts. “Here’s this distraction. Here’s this thing. Buy this thing. This is how you’d be happy. Look at these happy people. Talk to your doctor. Get this drug. You’ll be happy.” Complete release.
As hungry ghosts, we remain upset with the fantasy of achieving complete release from the pain of our past. We become stubbornly unaware of what is happening in the present.
Not “You’ll get a good job, make good money, have a nice home, family, whatever you want, become well known.” Your life will be pretty hard at times. It’ll be easy at times. It’ll be fun at times, and it’ll be crappy at times. One of the basic tenets of Buddhism is life’s hard. Life’s hard. We want this complete release, not an easing. It’s this knowledge that such people are estranged from, for their fantasy must be owned as a fantasy. The hungry ghost must come in contact with the ghost-like nature of their own body. We’re also talking about, as a hungry ghost, dealing with trauma. Therapists help with trauma. We do. I don’t really talk much about trauma anymore.
I just talk about being trained in a way that isn’t going to work. Your parents’ culture trains you to buy this fantasy, and then it doesn’t work. That’s traumatic because trauma causes us to be maladaptive, causes us to believe that this magic will work, and we have no choice but to be outraged. That’s my little sermon on hungry ghosts.
It is completely fascinating, the idea, the concept that what we suffer from, we feel, can be remedied. For example, when you mentioned mommy-daddy love, some of us don’t have mommy and daddy around. We can’t go to them. They can’t soothe us. They can’t fix us. Whatever void is left by whatever experience we’ve endured, can that be?
No, it’s impossible. You’re asking for something impossible. There’s always going to be the disappointment. There’s always going to be not getting what you, not want, but demand. If you can actually want something rather than demanding it, you can deal with not getting it. But if you demand it, you’re going to rage. That’s your only option. There again, you can start to apply this to everything, the political and cultural divides. “You’re not giving me what I want, so you aren’t getting what you want. If you keep telling me that I’m not going to get what I want, then I’m eventually just going to destroy you.”
What I’m hearing you say is it starts with this expectation, this expectation which, in my mind, is, and I’ve heard it said, our seeds of future disappointment. When we attach ourselves to an outcome, when we want, when we need something to work out a certain way, that outcome is what we attach ourselves to. Even though it’s completely out of our control, to the degree we can’t control it, we get anxious because it’s so out of our control, and we’re crossing our fingers in hopes that it turns out the way we’ve envisioned it to, which it never does. Not only are we anxious up until the event, the outcome disappoints us, which puts us into a state of anger or rage or not-enough-ism or lack.
We’ve lived for a period of time outside of a peaceful existence. We’re disappointed with the outcome because only one outcome, in our mind, was preferable, which, again, is amazing, and when you could apply this to relationships, you’re dealing with variables that are so beyond us.
Everything. It explains everything, and you got it down with the exception of tweaking things like want. It’s not a want, it’s a demand. I want to be a better golfer, and there’s frustration and aggravation with attempting to be better. I hit a shot that I deem not very good. There are countless reactions I could have. I listen to guys on the golf course, with probably the most common reaction, which is rage. They beat themselves up, “I’m so stupid, I suck.” They’re raging because they aren’t wanting to be a better golfer. If I yell at myself like that, it’s not because I want to be a better golfer. I demand that I be a better golfer. If I want to be a better golfer, I can take in that it’s hard.
I can get better at it and say, judged by the scores I have, or I can get better at it judged by the fact that my good shots are way better than they’ve ever been. I can accept the vicissitudes of life. I remember when I heard that term, vicissitudes, I don’t agree that it’s going to be up and down, that I’m going to hit good shots and bad shots. I’ve trained myself to react to a shot like that in a number of different ways. If I hit a ball off into the woods, I just wave goodbye. I might go, “I love that ball,” or “Bye,” something like that. If I hit a shot that doesn’t go anywhere near the hole, I’ll say, “This is going to be awesome when I hole this out.” If you get away from the fantasy by, first of all, going, “This is a fantasy. I’m really not right here, so I’m raging, so I’m going to stop raging. I’m going to get out of the fantasy.”
How do you really do that? The Buddhists have the answer. You get out of the realm of the hungry ghost through the bodhisattva of compassion, which is what I teach every day, with my clients and in daily, constant conversations with myself. Kindness. Be kind. Wave at the golf ball right as it’s leaving. That’s where it goes. Hit a great shot, enjoy what I’m doing, I’m outside, I’m doing what I love, hopefully with somebody I’m enjoying. What have I got to complain about? It’s through kindness. Gratitude, as I call it. Generally, I say kindness and compassion, and I think those are better descriptors than the word love. Caring, kindness, and compassion, that works better for me than love, because love is so screwed up.
That’s a whole other podcast we can do, what love really is and what it’s not. I think the Buddhist monk had an answer for that. He said, “You find out what love is after you’ve learned what love is not. “How can I be kind? This is one of the conversations I was having this morning with a client. Being kind to a box of puppies is easy. You’re not going to learn kindness from a box of puppies. The way to learn kindness is to engage kindly with the most horrible, awful, disgusting, vile, evil things you have in your life. If warring factions sat down with kindness, compassion, caring, really listened to the point of understanding, they would see that the other is only trying to protect themselves, coming from a place of helpless, hopeless, powerless. “I don’t think anything is going to change. I’m going to destroy you.”
The way to learn kindness is to engage kindly with the most horrible, awful, disgusting, vile, and evil things in your life.
Of course, if you don’t ever see anything changing, why wouldn’t you? Why would you want to live under my rule? I don’t want to live under yours. We’re just alike, and we’re doing the same thing. It’s learning, first of all, what it is you are doing. “I’m raging, I’m demanding, I’m believing in fantasy.” Let me listen to the bodhisattva of compassion and treat this situation, this person, myself, with kindness, care, and compassion. Get an understanding of them and actually do my best to work with them, to help them get their needs met. I had this incredible need for the dishwasher to be loaded just this way. “I just do. Show me again how you want to load it. I’ll load it that way, and I’ll eat on dishes that I know aren’t clean because they’re facing this way instead of that way.” Be sure to put on my obituary. wide-eyed.
This has been my favorite of the conversations that we’ve had. I can’t wait to read the comments and see. I remember the first time you explained this concept to me, where my mind went, where my heart went, and how clear things became quickly after understanding. On behalf of the listeners and the viewers, I just want to express sincere gratitude because you do an excellent job of taking something really abstract and complicated and bringing it in terms that we can all understand and relate to. I feel lighter. Maybe the greater the resistance, the greater the breakthrough, but at this point, there’s just a sense of acceptance.
There’s a sense of peace around certain things that I’m thinking about, and I’m sure as you listen to this or watch this on YouTube, you’re probably thinking of relationships or circumstances in your life where, hopefully, Eddie’s explanation of the Buddhist philosophy or concept of the realm of the hungry ghost has offered some clarity or understanding. There are a lot of places that we could go as a result of this. We’ve talked about a couple. We’ve talked about mommy and daddy love, and I’m reluctant to go into where I want to go because I think it would be an outstanding episode in and of itself, and it’s the way that the realm of the hungry ghost is used almost universally, in combination with your explanation of helpless, hopeless, and powerless, to describe addiction and where that comes from.
You can use this, I believe, to describe any suffering of any kind. That’s what I love about the concepts that I do my best to live and do a good job of working from, it really does apply to anything. Which is great, because it makes healing and change very simple. I appreciate your kind words. You were saying the same thing I heard in my last session this morning. The guy was like, “God, this is so much simpler than I thought,” and I go, “It is.” When somebody tells me that, it reminds me of an interview that Terry Gross on Fresh Air did with John Fogerty. He came out with an album of songs that were pretty simple and direct, and Terry’s comment was, “Everything you’ve written up to this is metaphor. If you go back and listen to all the Creedence songs, they’re all metaphoric, and there are no love songs.”
The Power Of Simplicity In Healing
When I realized that one time, I was like, “He’s written this many songs that I know, and none of them are love songs? That’s amazing,” which is a whole other podcast where you talk about love songs or what love is. Anyway, he said this new album is very direct. And I’m wondering why the change, and he said, “Because it took me 30 years to learn to write it simple.” I remember going, “That’s my journey as a therapist. It’s my journey as a person. It’s taking something that seems and feels so impossible, because it is, and then breaking it down and going, I get it.” I appreciate the kind words. I do think that’s a talent that I have, just make this easy.
You do, and from the professional’s perspective, there’s a saying that complexity fails, simplicity scales. So, the idea that simple survives, confusion, not so much, complexity, not so much. Your ability to put things in terms that anyone can understand is the reason that we called this Therapy for Everyday Life.
It sparked the thought of, if you’re absolutely right, simplicity scales, which is why we fall for conspiracy theories. It’s why we follow demagogues. Because that’s what they do, they make it simple. It’s a simple problem with a simple solution, but the solution is always do it my way, follow me, and destroy everything I like. It’s simple. This is why we have to be careful, because you might fall for a simple fantasy or a simple version of a fantasy to get mommy and daddy love and have all your demands met.
Complexity fails. Simplicity scales.
Concluding Thoughts
This was fun. This was enlightening. I’m grateful. Hopefully, you are too. Ladies and gentlemen, please make sure you like the episode, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and give us your comments and feedback. The comments that we get and the questions that you have give us inspiration to record future episodes. It helps us to better deliver these messages and to better speak to the people who are finding it helpful. It really is a conversation. It’s not just two talking heads sharing space and talking about what we find interesting. We’re really doing this in hopes that we’re creating a positive impact and a lasting legacy of all the benefits that therapy, psychotherapy, and conversations with a reputable therapist can bring.
Again, sincere thanks for sharing your time with us. Eddie, sincere thanks to the audience for being here. This was another episode of The Couch Trip, and I’m writing down notes for future episodes as soon as we go off air. But again, thank you for listening to Eddie Reece and Bill Courtright on The Couch Trip, Therapy for Everyday Life. We’ll be coming back soon.
Thanks. See you next time
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